The US
spies with the "eavesdropping equivalent of a nuclear bomb," says US-
bestselling author James Bamford - and urges an independent investigation into
the intelligence community.
DW: Is
Edward Snowden a traitor, a hero or just a whistleblower?
James
Bamford: These labels are useless because he keeps moving from one place to
another. Basically what he released in the US was an enormous service to the
American public, because the public certainly didn't know the government was
getting access to all their telephone records on a daily if not a
minute-by-minute basis. I've never read where the constitution allows the
government access to my private information without any reason. So I consider
that a very noble piece of information he gave, it took a lot of courage for
him to do that. Where he ends up is still a mystery.
We know
from the leaked papers that the NSA is targeting EU institutions, and European
governments. What do you know about that?
The US has
a dual relationship with these countries. On the one hand, they are partners
with many of these counties, especially the UK and Germany. Germany was
probably the country the NSA depended on most in terms of eavesdropping; during
the Cold War it had more eavesdropping bases in Germany than probably anyplace.
There is a
very close relationship between the NSA and the German equivalent. They share a
great deal of information - international issues, economic issues, terrorism.
But then there is the other side of the coin where the NSA targets information
in Germany, it targets average German citizens for no apparent reason. They
have enough money to do all this and then there are very few restrictions on
the NSA in the United States, there is no bureaucratic protection from the
intelligence agencies. If you go to Germany, there's nothing preventing them
from eavesdropping.
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| James Bamford is an expert on the NSA |
NSA
statistics indicate that Germany is on par with countries like China or Iraq in
terms of the intensity of electronic snooping. Does the US view Germany as an
enemy?
The public
certainly doesn't. Maybe the NSA has a different view but the NSA lives in this
very strange world that almost never interacts with the real world. They live
in this very unusual cocoon. I've written three books about the NSA. They have
a very different view of the world than the average person does and sometimes
it can be very dangerous.
But why do
they focus on Germany?
Germany is
the economic powerhouse in Europe, and that's where the 9/11 terrorists began,
they began in Hamburg so there is an issue of a potential future development of
terrorism. And Germany exercises a lot of political influence throughout
Europe. By listening to Germany, you're getting not only what the German
government itself is saying, but you're able to get an indication of what the
Spanish, Dutch and Greek governments - whoever is interacting with the German
government - think.
Germany is
classified as a "third class" partner. What is the reason for that?
It's a
misnomer, I don't think they really meant to say that. I think what they meant
to say is that it's a third party. It's how it's designated, the US is the
first party in this, then there four other second parties: Australia, New
Zealand, Canada and the UK. Those five groups are known as the "five
eyes." They formed during World War II to maximize their cryptologic
capabilities. They divided up the world in terms of eavesdropping capabilities.
We all know
the Germans and the Europeans spy on their neighbors, maybe also the US. Is
there any difference to what the US does?
There is a
big difference. President Barack Obama made a comment where he said, oh, we all
spy on each other. The only difference is, the US spies with the eavesdropping
equivalent of a nuclear weapon because of the money, the power, the
technological capability of the US. The NSA is the largest intelligence agency
in the world. Other countries spy with the equivalent of a canon. One of the
benefits the US has is that the major Internet companies are located in the US
so they can put pressure on them to turn over information. If you look at the
worldwide telecommunications net, almost all of it goes through the United
States. 80 percent of telephone communications go through the United States. So
the US is in the unique position of being able to eavesdrop on the world
without much difficulty.
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| Edward Snowden gave Americans "a noble piece of information" |
To a large
degree, this a very counterproductive activity, if you're trying to find a
needle in a haystack, and that is the whole idea post-9/11, and if you keep
putting more and more hay on the haystack, it makes it more difficult to find
that needle.
Should the
president take corrective or decisive action and what should be the next steps?
I don't
trust the president to do anything useful because he has expanded this power.
In the 1970s, we had this big independent investigation into the intelligence
community. That's what you need today. We've gone way too far after 9/11in
terms of excessive security and I think the only way to correct the system is
by having an independent commission that looks into it and has the power to
make changes.
James
Bamford is a US author and journalist. He has written several books on the NSA,
including the bestseller "The Puzzle Palace," the first book devoted
to the workings of the NSA.
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